DAMANHUR
Introduction
Welcome back to Community Resilience, a podcast created in collaboration with the Ecovillage Resilience 2.5 Degree Project, facilitated by the Global Ecovillage Network. I’m your host, Eva Goldfarb, inviting you to gather around the fire as we explore resilience, adaptation, and transformation in our time of deepening polycrisis. Macaco Tamarice is a life coach, trauma worker, facilitator, and spiritual healer who has found purpose and happiness by going through profound personal transformations and life choices. She has lived in Damanhur for nearly 30 years and served the Ecovillage Network as the President of GenEurope, Ecovillage Design Education Facilitator, and GenUN Ambassador. I will let her tell you the rest. Macaco was one of my EDE instructors and a dear mentor. I hope you enjoy our conversation on the life cycles of Damanhur, the interplay between inner freedom and community, and take from our conversation ideas for building resilience in your community. Enjoy.
Interview with Macaco
Eva: Okay, welcome Macaco. Thank you so much for being here today.
Macaco: Oh, it’s my pleasure to be here.
Eva: I wanted to start by sharing a bit of your story with our listeners. Can you tell us how you came to be in this podcast today?
Macaco: Oh, so you mean from the very beginning?
Eva: Yeah, well, it can be short. I would love to hear about your story and major points of transition that brought you to where you are today.
Macaco: Mm-hmm. So, I grew up in Germany and in a very nice family and very open family. So, I had contacts with a lot of… My parents were doing permaculture even when they didn’t know it was called permaculture. And they were very musical and so on. And so, I had a very open kind of childhood where I could really explore things as I wished to. And that definitely gave me the possibility to understand when I was an adolescent very clearly that the world, how it was supposed to be, was very different from how it was. And that there was a lot that was really a mess. And so, I got this awareness that there is a lot that needs to be mended and that a lot is really not… We are brought up with values and these values actually in the world play out in a very different way. From that, I think I started my career as a jazz singer because I studied philosophy in Naples when the possibility came up to become a professional jazz singer. And so, I became a professional jazz singer for many, many years for the first part of my life. And it was actually after about 15, 17 years of my career and we were at a very good point and we were having a tour in Japan. And in Japan, jazz is really appreciated. So, it means we had the possibility to stay there as Westerner jazz musicians, really appreciated, well paid, well treated, very differently from the rest of the world. And it was in that moment, it was actually after an interview at the radio when I couldn’t sleep at night. And at that time, I already knew Damanhur, my first husband. He is a very good saxophone player. He had very big ear problems with his nerves. And through prana healing, after a lot of running from different specialist to specialist, he was able to solve it. And so, I thought, wow, this is really interesting. And so, that night, I was not able to sleep and I was wondering what I really wanted from life. What do I really want from life? And it was clear to me that I did not want success because it’s so ephemerous. I mean, I wanted to be acknowledged by my fellow musicians and I wanted to be liked by my public, but it’s not something that I was looking for as my final approach. So, that was something that I wanted a real life with real people based on real values. And that was the moment when I decided to see whether Damanhur could be the answer to my question. And so, nine months later, we both went to live in Damanhur. And then our ways went different ways, but that was the moment when I decided to come to Damanhur. And I had a lot in these nine months between coming to Damanhur at this moment and coming to Damanhur. There was a whole back and forth, you know, and is this really the right thing? And is this not? And me as a jazz musician, as a very strong individualist, am I really able to live in a community or is a community making you all flat and all these kinds of things, you know? So, I had a lot of doubts and backs and forth. And then when I arrived here, I discovered myself a perfect community animal. Just like being so at ease and feeling so well and all my fears of that the community would take away your possibility of being a strong individual. And it was exactly the opposite. I had the possibility to develop so many sides of myself that I would have never even, I mean, not only expected, but I couldn’t dream about. And also, I think that in a community, what happens is that as you have so many mirrors, you see parts of yourself that you normally don’t see, both the ones that you don’t want to see, but also the ones that you don’t know of and that are really beautiful to see. So, you become a stronger individual, much stronger than living a normal life, I think, just because there are so many interactions, so many, many. And so, when I came to Damanhur, after a while, I was working with the PR office because I knew several languages. And so, in 2007, actually, I became the person responsible for the exchange with international communities. So, I went to the Italian network meeting, to the RIBE meeting, I went to the GEN meeting, and that was my start. And the next year I was elected into the council. And so, I was, for many, many years, I was in the council of GEN Europe, and I’m still very involved with GEN at all different levels. And last but not least, this beautiful project that we are talking about here, which is the Resilience Project, because in this period of, in these many years, I really saw, I was focusing on all these aspects that have to do with regeneration and sustainability on all different levels, on the social, on the ecology, on the economy, and the worldview, you know, all these different dimensions, but also how to approach the world as a whole. So, also having a global view. And I learned so much in these years.
Eva: Thank you so much. I’m very proud of the succinct response to your timeline from childhood in Germany, all the way up to the Resilience Project. One thing that stuck out to me while you were speaking is this mention of real people. And I’m really curious what this means to you and how this came to life in Damanhur.
Macaco: Yeah, I think the real people thing is that people who are not covering themselves behind masks and behind, and who don’t cover up their things, you know, who try to understand who they really are, what the world really is about, and why we are here. What are we here to do on this world, you know? I think the very deep questions that every human being, when they stand still for a moment, they think about, what are we doing here, you know? And I definitely found out that I want to make this world a better place. I see so many things that are not working. And I want to do my little, little part where I can to do my piece. And it starts from yourself. It starts working on yourself. And in a community, you have a lot of people. You cannot live in a community if you’re not working on yourself. It’s impossible to stay in a community. Wonderful. You talked about arriving in Damanhur after already hearing about it. And I’m curious what this time in Damanhur was like when you arrived. Well, when I arrived, I arrived in the 90s, in the beginning of the 90s. And Damanhur had already existed for some 12 years or so, 11 or 10 years or so. And the temples of humankind were not yet open to the public. They were not yet known. They were still secret. So when I joined Damanhur, not the community, but the whole movement of Damanhur, I was living in Bologna, which is a very beautiful city, 350 kilometers from here. And we were doing a beautiful course about the philosophy of Damanhur. And I didn’t know that there was a temple, but still I was really fascinated by Damanhur. And then when the temples became public, many things became more clear because creating something so incredible, this huge piece of artwork that really wants to represent humanity and the possibility of humanity so that as human beings, when we are together, we can do almost anything. And this really strong conviction I have lived here in Damanhur all the time, all these years, that if you really, really believe in something together with other human beings, you can definitely make it. And so that’s how it all started. And so inside of Damanhur, I think the most important part for me was to see that also after a while that I was not living yet here, but that I knew Damanhur, that through the work, I always measured my own well-being and inner freedom. And I had become so much freer in that short period, in that one year of period that I had known Damanhur than in the 10 years before I said, okay, if this is the thing, I’m going to go for it. You know?
Eva: That’s beautiful. And I really appreciate you sharing that. I think this is a fear shared by a lot of people as they enter into community or start to have conversations about joining community, that this individual spark somehow is diminished in community. And I love to hear, and I agree with you that it is in fact actually the opposite.
Macaco: Oh, definitely.
Eva: So you’ve mentioned a bit about where Damanhur is in Italy, near Bologna and the temples of…
Macaco: No, Damanhur actually is not near Bologna, but it’s near Turin. So Damanhur is near Turin. It’s very close to the Alps. It’s in the beginning of the Alps and it’s in a very beautiful place also.
Eva: Thank you so much. And you mentioned briefly the temples of humankind. One thing that really stands out for me about Damanhur is the size. And I’m wondering if you can begin to frame the structure a little bit.
Macaco: Yeah. So when I came here, there were about 300 people living here. And nowadays we count about 1,100 people that belong to Damanhur. People living here on the place, really in the place, there are about 600 people. And well, Damanhur has changed its structure. It has existed for almost 50 years and it has changed its structure continuously. So let’s say not continuously, but every now and then there was a very big change and a very big questioning of, is it really working what we are doing or do we need to do something very different? And just in these last years, we have created a new governance structure, which is different from before. And we have always been a federation of communities. And we have been going also in waves from being more a federation and more different things and to being more centralized. So there has been a continuous move towards more autonomy of the single parts and a centralization. And there has been always this movement of like a breathing. And sometimes it feels like when centralization is there, it feels like there’s too little possibility to really do the things that you want to do. And when there is too much openness, then it feels like there is not enough care for the whole of the system. Some energy needs to be brought again to the system itself. So we have changed lately in this last years, we have changed our, I mean, one thing that is very important to understand is that the founder of Damanhur has passed away in 2013. And he had a very important role before he passed away, because he really was the big inspirator of Damanhur. He was the person, Falco Tarassaco, Alberto Airaudi, he was the person who was able to make people dream. But he was also the person who was able to take any kind of catastrophe and make it become the biggest opportunity. He had this really long view and this really strong spiritual research as well. And he was able to make people dream. So when he passed away, there was a big danger that Damanhur could break down, but it did not at all. But we had to reinvent ourselves. And so in these last 10 years, we have really reinvented ourselves a lot. And not last, really with this reorganization, we are now four big communities. I mean, one thing that is very important to know about Damanhur is that we have common ownership. So that means that the land and the houses, they are all owned by everybody. And actually, you are part of an association of one of the communities. And so you are a member of that. That is something that I think has helped to keep Damanhur together a lot. And so in these last years, our governance has become much more decentralized. So with the very strong decentralization of the four communities, and also the wish that they are different. Because in Damanhur, one thing that is very important is diversity. So we deeply believe in diversity. And we think it’s very important to create different cells that are doing different things and also in different ways. So for example, one community is using the governance through sociocracy. The other ones are doing something very different. And not very different, but different. It still looks a little bit like sociocracy. But this is something that not because we have adopted sociocracy, but because it’s like a natural thing. We are like a big organization that is organized in circles, and in smaller circles, and in smaller circles. We live in nucleos. My nucleo is we live in 12 people. This is one house with a territory and also with a project inside of Damanhur. And also with the territory. So we have our gardens, our greenhouses, our things, and then everybody has a work. Everybody in Damanhur has a work. And with our work, we contribute to the common costs. And we have a lot of things that we contribute to inside of Damanhur. We contribute both on the cost of the house, but also on a larger cost of the whole of the community, which is we all bring up our children, and we pay exactly the same amount everyone. We pay for our schools. We support the people that are, I mean, we have a kind of pension for the people who have been living here all their lives and don’t have an Italian pension, and so on, and so on. So we take care of the women who have children, and so on, and so on. It’s really a very strong solidarity principle at the base, and a very strong principle of sharing. And then everybody has their own management and their own things. So we live in these nucleos. In my nucleo, we are 12, and other nucleos, there are 25 people. It really depends. And then these nucleos, like seven, eight, 10, 12 together, they make one community. And so we meet inside the community. We meet once a week and talk about things. Then one person is elected to be the head of the family, and the spokesperson meets with the other spokesperson of the other nucleos, and together with a governor of the whole of the community and his vice that are elected by the whole of the community. And then those governors, they meet with the other three governors and two people that are elected by the whole of Damanhur. And so there is like a system, and it looks very much like a sociocratic system, although it’s different, and we have our own ways of doing things.
Eva: And this movement around the family nucleus is really what inspires me so much from Damanhur’s model. And I know that there is a lot of richness in your governance and structure, especially being one of the larger communities in Europe. And I would love to deep dive in there, but it’s not our theme for today, unfortunately. So I’m wondering if there are any resources for listeners who would like to explore more about the Damanhur model governance and learn more about the community inner workings? Is there a way for people to connect on this level?
Macaco: Actually, it’s a pity, but we don’t have really something that is written about that at the moment. But there are two courses that I could recommend. And one is the community course of Damanhur, which is called How to Create a Successful Community. And the other one is the EDE, the Ecovillage Design Education course that we hold every year here at Damanhur. And that way, you’ll learn a lot about the governance of Damanhur and about the whole.
Eva: I think I will grab onto the string of diversity that you mentioned earlier, and have this be our transition into really sinking into our topic today, which is resilience. I value diversity as a very strong piece within building resilience. And I’m curious if Damanhur, whether in the nuclear or on a wider scale, has a common understanding of what it means to be resilient, or what you would like?
Macaco: I think that it has two sides. So on the one side, I think, if we talk about resilience, with the word resilience, I think people very often don’t know. But first of all, we always try to have organic agriculture. And at a certain point, we decided to only go for organic and to support our own agriculture, because not everybody is interested in agriculture. And then we have a lot of protocols in place since the 90s for emergencies. So we have protocols when there would be a radioactive thing happening. We have protocols for if there is a pandemic long, 10 years or 15 years before the pandemic spread, we had been already working on that and making exercises. I mean, really trying it out, you know, so to live. And we have health system where we regularly report if somebody is not well. And we have protocols on how to behave when somebody is not well, because there was a time, I mean, in a community when you have a flu, it spreads through the whole community if you don’t take care. And it really breaks down the community for a week or two, you know. So in order not to make that happen, we started long ago to have our protocols. And we are very self-sufficient as well. I mean, so we try to be self-sufficient. We have a lot of photovoltaic panels. I mean, in case something really would not work anymore, and everything would break down, I think we could do with what we have, you know. So we have a lot of solar panels, we have geothermal plants, we have reed bed systems to clean the water, we have our own water, and so on and so on. So there’s really a lot of resilience in the place.
Eva: I’m curious how the Damanhur community, your Nucleo or the wider community, has been engaging with the work of the Resilience Project.
Macaco: It was very interesting because it is not easy to bring a big community. I mean, communities, especially when they’re very big, they’re also very self-centered, you know. There’s always a part that is also very self-centered. There’s a part that looks around the global, and there is a part that is very self-centered. And it’s very time-absorbing, a community. So people don’t have much time. So it was not so easy to bring. So, for example, for the timeline, we brought together quite a good number of people to do that. And for the other exercises, actually, I prefer to work in smaller groups, like five to six people, because it was just easier to get them all together. Because that’s the biggest challenge for this project has been to bring the people together to work on it.
Eva: That I can understand. You’ve already mentioned the historical timeline. This was one element of the Resilience Project where communities were invited to mark the really transformative years. And I’m curious what you learned during this process about Damanhur and how you as a community have responded to change?
Macaco: I think it opened our eyes of all of the people who were part of it. Because on the one side, really looking at the timeline, I mean, it was not the first time that we have looked at our timeline in Damanhur. But looking at it from this point of view was something really very, interesting, because it gave different understanding of what happened and why things happened. In the hindsight, things look different than when you are inside, you don’t see what’s happening. You don’t know why things are happening. When you look at them in hindsight, then it changes a lot. So that was really, really beautiful. And we saw for the first time, actually, also when you are living in a community, if you ask people in Damanhur, are we really sustainable? Most people will say, no, but we are not at all sustainable enough, and we are really not sustainable. And if you look at how sustainable we are compared to outside society, but also to a lot of other communities, then we are extremely sustainable. But when you are inside, you also always see everything that is not there. And exactly. And when you look at it, when we did the timeline exercise, it was really beautiful because it all came up in front of our eyes. So that was very, very beautiful. And also many other exercises, they had a similar effect, but not so big. The timeline exercise was the one that had the biggest effect.
Eva: And what patterns did you notice during this exercise?
Macaco:I think the patterns that we really saw, I mean, at different levels. So on the one level, it’s really on the personal level, it’s that people, when they are in a field of sustainable thinking, they are tinged by this field, though they might not be interested in the subject itself. But still they are tinged. That’s on the one level. On the other side, there were many patterns. As I said, we always went from more centralized to more decentralized, from more centralized to more decentralized. It was really like a continuous movement that sometimes took also 10 years to stay in one movement until it was really conquered, really lived fully, and then something else was needed. So I think the biggest pattern that we saw is change and a continuous adaptation to what is needed. And I think that also the resilience of Dharmanur is exactly in that point, that we have been able to always change when it was needed.
Eva: Now I would like to dig into that change a little bit more and see if we can analyze it through moments of joy and ease and harmony, and also moments of hardship. But let’s start maybe with the joy. If there are a few years or phases that come to mind when you think about your history in Dharmanur, and what has really marked these points of harmony?
Macaco: I think when I arrived in Dharmanur, I came to live here in 93, and it was a moment when it was a little bit grayish. There had been a very strong history before with traveling all over Italy, all over the world, a lot of people, and doing a lot of really exciting things, and starting to build the temples. And now the temples were standing still, of course, when they were discovered, because there was a whole process of making them become legal. Because in Italy, it was not possible to build underground buildings, not in Italy, in Piedmont, there were no laws for that. And we were living in a very Catholic country, so everything, especially in the 90s, that was not a church, would not have been allowed to be built. So we built it in secret, and it took us quite a while to make the temples become legal. But we succeeded, and it was a great, great thing. And that was a very big opening, because that was the opening when we could also tell the world why we were here, because we really believed in humankind. And opening the temples to the humankind, that was a very exciting thing. So we had a lot of visitors, and then so that brought a lot of movement with it. And in the beginning of 2000, there was a moment when we built, when before we never had money, we didn’t have people with money. So everything was really built on the work of the people. And everybody was working so hard in Damanhur, so, so hard. I mean, we were all working like 12, 13, 16 hours a day, and sometimes 18 and 20, just for years, really working. But because everybody believed in it so strongly, so people were doing their normal work, and then they were working at the temples at nighttime. So that was completely crazy, but also very beautiful, and it created a very strong glue. And then in the beginning of 2000, the temples were visitable, and so we had a lot of visitors all of a sudden, and that was very beautiful and a very big opening, because that was the opening when we could also tell the world why we were here, because we really believed in humankind, you know? So, and opening the temples to the humankind, that was a very exciting thing. So, we had a lot of visitors, and then, so that brought a lot of movement with it. And in the beginning of 2000, there was a moment when we built, when, you know, before we had, we never had money, we didn’t have people with money. So, everything was really built on the work of the people. And everybody was working so hard in Dharmanand, so, so hard. I mean, we were all working like 12, 13, 16 hours a day, and sometimes 18 and 20, you know, just for years, you know, really working, but because everybody believed in it so strongly. So, people were doing their normal work, and then they were working at the temples at nighttime. So, you know, so that was completely crazy, but also very beautiful, and it created a very strong glue. And then in the beginning of 2000, the temples were visitable. And so, we had a lot of visitors all at a sudden, and that was very beautiful and a very big opening. And also, because it became clear that our houses, because we had always bought the baddest houses that you could buy for the littlest money, so that then we could reconstruct them by ourselves and not spend so much money. But we saw that our houses were not adequated, where they were really not suited for our needs. Because also, because before the people were living, there was always also, at that time, there were different communities, but then they were also, people were living in much smaller apartments or little houses, like with five, seven people. And then it all spread out, and there became like 15 people, 20 people, 25 people, even 30 people in one community, and the houses were just not suitable that you could buy here. So, we built a lot of new houses, and that was both our blessing, but also our curse, because then we had to pay back the loans, and we are still paying them back. So, that almost paralyzed Damanhur some years ago, the paying back of the loans. So, a good advice is never take too much loans from the banks, or don’t take loans at all, if possible. That’s a very good advice. But it was a very, very exciting time. And then the crisis hit, and also the visitors became much less, and a lot of our activities, we had a really thriving building, ecological building company, and they had to close down because they couldn’t work anymore. And a lot of our activities and of our companies, they had to close down. I mean, here in Italy, around us, about three quarters of all the factories even closed down in the first part of 2000 until 2010, 2015. There was a big depression around and the depression around also affected us. It was a very big hardship when Falco died, because it was a big grief, a long grief, very big, long grief. And then we realized, we realized that we had been living over our possibilities for a long time. So we had a hole, an economic hole. And this economic hole was also because of all the things that we had built and that we had to pay back. And period in which for three years from 2016 to 2020, more or less 17 to 20, in 16, we started to realize that we had this problem and 17, we started to really work on it. And then there were three years in which we were mainly focused on solving economical problems and to reorganize our whole being and our whole structure and everything so that we would, that it was more suited for how we were and to close this hole. And that was something that brought a lot of hardship to the Damanurians because Damanurians are all people who want to make this world a better place, very strong idealists. And when you only hear about economy, you’re an idealist, and you’re a dreamer, then that really brought down a lot of energy. So quite a few people changed their citizenship. So they are still Damanurians, but they’re not living in the communities, but they’re living for themselves because, also because they could not cope with the costs to live inside of Damanhur because of all these solidarity funds that we have and so on and so on. So, but a lot of dreaming really was brought down. And then, thanks God, we got lifted up again in around 2020, 21. I mean, for us, we were just getting out of the hole when the pandemic started. So that was really terrible. And that visitors are a very strong income stream for Damanhur and courses. So that was completely cut off. So that was terrible. But on a community level, the pandemic was beautiful because we were, of course, living in our houses and we were living all together as if we were not living normally. We worked together a lot on the territory. We had a lot of great community time. It was one of the best community times ever because everybody was at home, was working together. So it was really beautiful on that side. But then, and then we also started to really look at reorganizing our governance and came to the governance that is very, very participatory that we have today and that is much more participatory than before. So I think the energy really went up again. So we are definitely in a, in a up going stream.
Eva: Thank you so much for sharing. I have a few highlights that I would like to more or less caption, and then maybe we can dig a bit more into this economic dimension and any wisdom you have for working through this, because I think this is a theme in a lot of different communities. But just taking an overview of the joy you shared, and it was just reminded again, you talk a lot about this shared purpose of wanting to make the world a better place. And key indicators that I observed from moments of joy were when you were really showing this work to the wider public, when the temples became open to the public, and when you were sharing in the work as a community, and you were really seeing that everyone was participating to make this dream become a reality. I just really found these two points very beautiful.
Macaco: That’s exactly like that.
Eva: Yeah. And then looking into this financial aspect and the economic restructure and the hardships that come with financial insecurity. I’m wondering, aside from the advice not to take out loans with the bank, if you have any wisdom to pass on to other communities that are in a similar place?
Macaco: Yes, we have. I mean, for example, I did not share one of the biggest moments in the history of Damanhur, which was when we bought ex-Olivetti factory that we had tried to buy for 15 years, and we were not able to buy it because they didn’t want to sell it to us. And it was already run down. It was abandoned since 20 years. And it’s what today is the Damanhur Kreia. And we, as I said, we didn’t have money. But in that night, when Falco, he was, as I said, he was really able to make us dream. And in that night, he started himself. He said, well, it would be so wonderful if we were able to buy this. And one million euros was needed to be raised. And in that night, you won’t believe it, we raised almost one million euro. It was, I cannot even tell you how it was. I still get tears in my eyes when I talk about it, because it was unbelievable. Everybody was offering everything they had, and asking their friends and their parents and whoever they could phone to. And, you know, whoever could help. And it was, everybody was on the phone. And yeah, now this, and now this one offered this, and this one offered that. And it was like, you know, everybody offered something, and the houses offered something, and the communities offered something, and the weights offered something. And, you know, it was just unbelievable. We almost collected one million euros and bought the Damanhur Kreia. And then in six months time, we renovated completely the Damanhur Kreia with the help of everybody voluntarily. Every hour was spent there, and we made that together. And that’s the way Damanhur works. And that’s really, and if you have been part of one of those experiences, you carry them with you for your whole life, because they are so strong. Then you can really see everything is possible, you know, it’s pure magic. Both the buying of the Damanhur Kreia and the building, the renovating with everybody there. It was buzzing, you know, buzzing for six months. And then we opened it, and now we have the big Damanhur Kreia, 4,000 square meters on two floors, where we have our studios, where we have the art workshops, where we have shops, we have a huge organic shop where we sell a lot of our products as well. We have solar companies, we have a hairdresser, an assurance broker, and so on and so on. You know, everything that you can think of. And a huge hall where we all meet, where we can all meet. So a conference hall. I love this story because it really paints the ribbon of resilience for me, going from how you build resilience as a community by overcoming hardship, by really working together to make the world a better place, as you say. We’ve also shared a bit about the systems and policies that are in place to help work with future catastrophes. But it sounds like through really the physical and the coming together, the work, believing in the dream, you are becoming more resilient in your structure as well, in the way you’re able to expand, fill spaces, bring in new businesses. I also have a bit of foresight, but I’m very curious in the Damanhur economic structure within the community. I think you build a lot of local resilience there, and I’m wondering if you can share at all. As I said before, every Damanhurian has a work. So we all have work. And we have a lot of companies that we call Damanhurian companies, but in the eyes of Italy, they are just Italian companies. But for us, they are Damanhurian companies. We have a lot of associations, different associations where several people work. And we have also a lot of companies, and we have a lot of professionals. So I think where there is a possibility to create a profession that can survive, it has been created. And over time, some have not survived because there were the difficulties, and then maybe they came out in a different way. But I think that also the Damanhurians as themselves, they are very resilient. And you are supported inside of Damanhur if you are in difficulties. So we have solidarity funds and so on, and that’s something that is very important because you’re not alone, not forever. You have to find your way, but for a time, you are supported. That also helps a lot. And the believing, I think, is one of the most… Believing in a dream, in a common dream. That’s the most resilient thing that you can think of, because that really creates resilience.
Eva: Looking ahead, you have talked a lot about different work that’s been done in the past that has prepared you for things such as corona and potential future pandemics as well. I’m wondering if there has been any work done on economic future resilience in terms of local currency.
Macaco: For me, this is a big reason for reaching out into a wider community and starting to build these regional, national, international connections. There might not be anything there, but if there is… No, no, there is. We have had our own currency, our own complementary currency for 45 years, I think, and we stopped it during the pandemic because there was no possibility of exchanging it. And now we are looking at, because it was convertible to the euro, and now we are studying a new system that we want to put in place that will be most probably partially convertible and partially not convertible, because otherwise it does not make so much sense to have a complementary currency besides the ethical values that are behind. So, it makes a difference if you exchange with money that has never been participating in any criminal acts or exploiting somebody. That has always been very important for us. And one of the reasons why we always… We paid all our people, at least partially, in creditos. Our currency was called credito. And we have created a very strong exchange on a local level. So, we have, for example, helped reintroducing apple trees that were… Old apple trees that grew here a long time ago and other species. We reintroduced them together with the farmers here in the ground that are not Darmaninians. So, there is a lot of exchange with the bioregion. And also our shop, we sell a lot of products that are from the bioregion. A lot of our companies, they employ people from outside of Darmanin. So, that also creates a lot of inter-exchange with the bioregion. And I think it creates resilience in the long run, because a lot of people actually who… Then afterwards, they become Darmaninians. The people that have first been working with Darmaninian companies, at a certain point they become Darmaninians because they see the value of it. But not all of them, but some of them. And I think the resilience really lays a lot also that we have a lot of greenhouses. We have our agricultural cooperative that is always struggling, but they are there and they are making it. And every house almost has their own greenhouses and creates their own crops. So, I think in the case of breakdown, of a general breakdown, we could survive with what we have. Maybe with difficulties, but we could survive. And I think that’s something that is very important. And as far as economy is concerned, really also lies in the resources that every Darmaninian has. Because as I said before, when you live in community, you dig out talents and capacities that you would have never thought of. So, I think also the resilience of the single people is stronger, because we are living in a very depressed economically, very depressed area of Italy. One of the most depressed areas economically of Italy. So, it’s very important to be resilient by yourself and to be very resourceful.
Eva: Looking into future scenarios and playing with the idea around collapse or an uncertain future, we can leave it very open. Do you think Damanhur is becoming more prepared to live in a new societal system? I wonder if this question makes sense. If we were to see the downfall of the economic system as we know it, I’m curious how you as a community have interacted with this topic and if you have any policy or plans in place.
Macaco: I think, as I said, autonomy is the first resilience. So, to be able to grow your own crops, to have your own energy and to have your own water. And we have that partially. We don’t have it for the whole of Damanhur, but we have it for partially. And as I said before, I think if everything collapsed, we could survive, you know, we could survive as a community. I really think we could make it. We have one very strong point, which is on the one side, it’s a possibility and it’s an opportunity, because we are spread out like a leopard skin. We are not in one place. So, that means that we are in five different municipalities here in the area of the Pyrmont. But our houses are sometimes that there are three, four houses together in one territory or four and a half hectares or five hectares. And then there is another five or six hectares. Then there are like 15 or 20 hectares of woods and so on and so on. So, but they are not all in the same places. So, this is on the one side a challenge, because if everything breaks down, we are not invulnerable, because we are very vulnerable, because we have a lot of different places in different parts. So, that’s a vulnerability. But on the other side, it also allows to have different crops, because some are more in the plain, others are more in the woods. In the woods, we have all the chestnut trees. You can just survive by the chestnut trees, you know, and so on and so on. So, there is a lot of, on the one side, the diversity really helps us. On the other side, the fact that we are not one compact place, it creates a danger.
Eva: Thank you for sharing your vulnerability and also giving this visual of the overview of Damanhur. I’m hoping we can transition from this very broad perspective down into the nucleo, into the individual level, to wrap with a bit more personal practices and individual takeaways that listeners can integrate into their life. And leaning a bit on your vast experience and trauma and inner work, Macaco, I view you as a very valuable wisdom keeper, and it would be nice to transmit some of that. And maybe starting with this topic of vulnerability that we picked up on, you say being spread out is a point of weakness, quote unquote, or vulnerability that you have as a community. And I’m wondering how this is addressed on an individual level within the community.
Macaco: I think coming together in nucleus, really, from the outside, sounds like a way of working against this vulnerability, making people feel safe and a part of a collective. And this is a long summary to come into the question of what experiences around trauma and inner work and policies or practices have you found that work for people on a broader level to work with this vulnerability, make people feel safe, make people feel, I don’t know, belonging? Yeah, I think that’s the word, belonging. I think people who live in Damanhur, they feel they belong to a bigger community, to a bigger dream. People in Damanhur really believe that we can do something to save humanity in a certain sense, in its true sense. On the one side, also our common spirituality that we have, which is not a religious approach, but a spiritual approach, which means that you always have to find verifications for what you are talking about, so that you always have experiences that really give you the trust in that you are on the right track. I mean, let’s start from another point. So, we all come from a society that has been traumatized since millenniums. So, we are all wounded people. And in a community, we always somehow recreate the vulnerabilities and the traumas that we have experienced when we were children. And in a community, you have a lot of possibilities to look at your own triggers, because you’re triggered continuously. Because there is a lot of people who have different approaches, who look at things differently, or who exactly reproduce some mechanisms and some mechanics that you have experienced in your life and that are part of your personal trauma baggage. So, it is impossible to live in community if you are not willing to work on yourself. It’s impossible. You cannot live in a community if you’re not willing to work on yourself. So, in Dharmanur, we have created, in the beginning, Dharmanur was always built on four pillars, on three pillars in the beginning, and then it became four pillars. And one is meditation, which is the spiritual path. One is the social, which is the living together. One is the game of life, which is the dynamic aspect, which is like a pathway of refined groups and to work on groups. So, with many different dynamics and things that we did, experiences, strong experiences. And from the game of life, actually, our last pillar was developed, which is called [te-ch-na-ka-to] and which does not have translation. It does not mean anything in Italian either. And it refers to, it’s a way of refinement for the individual. So, in the beginning, that was about 25 years ago, everybody would go to 15 Dharmanurians and ask them, what is it that you really don’t like, that you like less about me, without getting into the discussion, and you would write them down. And then you would go with these 15 points, you would go to the people from the [te-ch-na-ka-to] and look at them together. And you know how many things remained at the end, if you really looked at the different things that people were telling you. One, two, three, at the most. So, everybody was telling you with different words, the same things. So, with their own filters, because nobody tells you the truth, because everybody has a truth, which is filtered by their filters. So, knowing that, you would not take it too personal, and you would be able to work on it. Because otherwise, you’d go, oh, why do you think this about me? No, I never talked to you again. So, not to enter into that dynamic, it was really important to understand that. And we have a concept in Dharmanur that is called the “quasi real”, which means that there’s no such thing existing as reality. It always depends on the filters that we have in front of our eyes, that depend on how we were brought up, our experiences, even how we are feeling at the moment, and so on. So, that helps a lot. And the [te-ch-na-ka-to], you would then write a program for, in the beginning, it was for every three months, now it’s every six months, where you say, I will work on this, and on that, and on that, in this and this way, very practical, so that it could be verified, and you would work together with a group. And then a lot of things have changed, then you had somebody that you were working with, now we have it mainly also in the nucleus, so everybody in the nucleus knows the program of everybody, both what the people want to develop, and both what they want to work on. So, that’s something that allows us inside the nucleus to have an intimacy, in a certain sense, and no bullshit. And at the same time, really, that we know that we have to be very careful, because one thing that, especially in German cultures, criticism seems to be a positive thing, but very often criticism is not a positive thing at all, it destroys much more than it creates. So, there’s a lot of research that says that you need eight strokes in order to be able to digest one critic. So, if we really were aware of that, we would act differently. But in everyday life, things just happen, because trauma encounters trauma and encounters trauma. And so, you really have to find a way, and it’s very important to, on the one side, have this tolerance towards people, this acceptance of diversity, and you learn that a little at a time when you live in a community, you learn that. And you learn that also by people who are doing it, and if people are not doing it, you learn the opposite. So, it’s really a learning process that is extremely important. So, you can create a field that is very favorable for personal development, and you can create fields that are very difficult and hostile.
Eva: Thank you so much for sharing. I believe this inner transformational work has a big role in our interpersonal resilience, and the way that we are able to adapt to change. As you say, this is the one constant through the Damanhurian history. And for those that don’t have a community to help them pinpoint what the three key areas they have to work on are, do you have any advice for listeners that maybe are just learning about ecovillages or coming to this way of being of how they can really start this personal transformation?
Macaco: I think the first thing that comes to my mind really comes from my trauma work, because I do a lot of trauma work with people. And one thing that is really important is that every time when you are triggered, it is an old memory. It has nothing to do with the situation in the moment. That’s just the catalyzer. So, if we really realize that every time when we are triggered, it has to do with something, with some trauma that we have, that we carry inside of ourselves, with some of the burdens that we carry inside of ourselves, that makes things a lot more easy, because it does not make you identify so strongly with the story that you are telling yourself in that moment. And we all know that, that when we enter into a trauma, when we enter into one of these triggers, we are not able to get out until the film is over. It’s like a movie, you know? And it starts in a way, and then until it’s over. And only when it’s over, you start to reason again. When you are inside, you cannot reason. You are unable to reason. It just unfolds. The program unfolds. It’s like a program that is unfolding. So, to really be able to understand that this is happening, because when it’s happening, it feels like the truth, you know? And you are angry, of course, and your anger seems to stem from the moment, but very often it’s very old anger. Really to understand that if we are triggered, it has to do with ourselves. And it does not mean that we have to say yes to everything, because we have to say no to things, but also to be able to set our borders and our boundaries. This is something that has to do with our, we have to set boundaries with the others, because otherwise we cannot live happily. So, we cannot just accept, accept, accept. But all this is a healthy process, and if you understand, and if you look at it with curiosity, every time it happens, instead of condemning yourself or beating yourself up or beating somebody else up, then that helps a lot. To just look at what has just happened, what was it, what is it there? And I think that you can really experience also when you’re not living in community, because we all have families, we all have friends, and all these things happen also in all kinds of groups that we are part of.
Eva: Beautiful, thank you. I think this mind shift or worldview shift to approaching situations with curiosity is really deep and profound advice. This is something that I’m constantly striving to do when I am triggered or entering into a trauma space, really listening with the heart and approaching with curiosity. So, thank you so much for bringing that. It feels very hard to wrap up this rich and diverse conversation, so I will just leave it open. Is there any outstanding wisdom or advice you would like to share with listeners around the topics of resilience or community, or anything you would like to share as a resource for people who would like to go deeper?
Macaco: I think that wherever you are, you can create community. So, even if you’re not living in an intentional community, you can create community where you are, and I think that’s really, really very important. So, not to be afraid, because very often we are afraid of the other people, because we are touched in our traumas, and to overcome that fear, but to create also spaces and fields where we want to live, because we can create fields and frequencies where we are living, and we can do that. And everything starts with ourselves, so giving the example. So, being authentic. Authenticity is a very important part. I think for everybody, really looking at your own authenticity is something that is very, very, very important, and authenticity really is what comes more out when you are together with other people. Because then you see in which way you are different. Because when you’re only with your own, with yourself, you cannot see how different you are from the other people. So authenticity and the fact that we are all human beings, and we all have the very, very similar processes. That’s also something. To understand that the others are like me, and they have the same fears as I have, and the same insecurities that I have. So that’s something that helps a lot. And from there, to create something together with other people where you are, whether you are in cities, and create also something for the food. Because it’s really good to grow food. You can grow food also in the cities. You can find ways to grow food. So just to have a contact with the earth, with nature. I think the contact with nature is something we have not talked about so far, but it’s one of the things that is most important. Because we are nature. So we have to be part of nature, because it’s our nature. So that’s something that is also extremely important, I think, and as an advice for everybody.
Eva: I agree. Thank you so much for bringing that in the end. I’m sorry that we skipped over those questions. If you have any practices for connecting with the land and giving back, I would love to include them in the show notes as well.
Macaco: Yes, we have, you know that we have the music of the plants in Damanhur. We have created a device already 40 years ago that detects the electric conductivity between the leaf and the root. And it allows to really play and play music with plants. So we have been doing research for over 45 years with the music of the plants. And now we have a little device, which looks like a cell phone that you have different programs in, but the plants chooses the notes. So you can choose the kind of sounds that you want. But that’s something that is extremely important, because it allows you to understand that plants are living beings, sensing and intelligent, because I do sing with the plants and they sing with me. And that’s amazing. It’s totally amazing when that happens. And you realize all of a sudden that we are really living in a world where there is so much more to then what we see, that it’s very, very important.
Eva: And that is the most perfect way we could end this conversation. Gratitude for our sentient beings, siblings, the plants and all of the wider nature we are part of. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Macaco: Thank you for asking all these really, really good questions.
GEN Staff
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